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The Rick Warren Debate

President-Elect Barack “No Drama” Obama opened up a giant can of what the hell this week, when it was announced that controversial evangelical pastor, Rev. Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church, would give the invocation at the inauguration.

Warren, quite famously, is against gay marriage and came out for California’s Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage. The ballot proposition was pushed after the courts declared it discriminatory to allow heterosexuals the right of marriage but not homosexuals. Naturally, all kinds of people have cried foul, most notably in the gay, lesbian, transgendered community, as well as a host of Liberals and progressives. And while I understand what Obama is trying to do here (re: be inclusive, reach out to evangelicals), there are a host of evangelical ministers he could have invited to the big show who wouldn’t have arrived with nearly as much baggage.

“My blood pressure is really high right now,” said Rev. Chuck Currie, minister at Parkrose Community United Church of Christ in Portland, Oregon. “Rick Warren does some really good stuff and there are some areas that I have admired his ability to build bridges between evangelicals and mainline religious and political figures… but he is also very established in the religious right and his position on social issues like gay rights, stem cell research and women’s rights are all out of the mainstream and are very much opposed to the progressive agenda that Obama ran on. I think that he is very much the wrong person to put on the stage with the president that day.”

Warren does have a rather peculiar relationship with the incoming president. The two share a general ethos that political differences should not serve as impediments to progress. On topics like AIDS and poverty relief, they see eye-to-eye. But Warren’s domestic and social agendas are at odds with Obama’s. And for the gay and lesbian community in particular, the choice is a bitter pill to swallow.

“Pastor Warren, while enjoying a reputation as a moderate based on his affable personality and his church’s engagement on issues like AIDS in Africa, has said that the real difference between James Dobson and himself is one of tone rather than substance,” read a statement from People For the American Way President Kathryn Kolbert. “He has repeated the Religious Right’s big lie that supporters of equality for gay Americans are out to silence pastors. He has called Christians who advance a social gospel Marxists. He is adamantly opposed to women having a legal right to choose an abortion.” (Huffington Post)

Warren is sort of in the running for that unofficial position of “national spiritual leader,” a la Billy Graham. That particular evangelical minister attended 10 inaugurations (almost all of them) since President Dwight Eisenhower. He also showed up for other big events like the occasional “bless the war” ceremony. It’s a nice, influential position and with Graham old and sickly, there is some chatter about who will step into his shoes. Since it’s not the sort of thing you can apply for, all you can do is do your darnedest to hop on any and all hot topics that would put you in the middle of the political fray. Warren did this during the election, hosting a debate of sorts where Warren sat down individually with Obama and his opponent John McCain and shot the shit.

Mama Snob joked that Obama might as well have picked Rev. Jeremiah Wright or Father Michael Phleger if his intent was to have a good, vocal minority of people go into pique. (I offered up Jesse n’ Al, too, as all parties suggested would equally piss off someone, or everyone, at once.) But I’d argue that it was easier to pick someone who would irk Liberals and progressives because there has been a long-standing knowledge that you can push pinkos around because the modern right wing is so far right we truly have no other place to go.

Unless we’re going to all start voting for Ralph Nader or something.

Therefore this is the latest indignity to endure.

All I ask is that Warren remembers that the inauguration is about the presidency, not CONTROVERSIAL CULTURE WAR ISSUE OF THE DAY, and will just give the invocation without pissing of 48 percent of the country. The announcement has already distracted and derailed the news cycle. But I think Warren will keep-it-simple-stupid, because he is a smart guy and wants to be Graham’s heir apparent. And you don’t get to be Graham’s heir by being unpalatable, like crazy Pat Robertson or dearly departed but also crazy Jerry Falwell OR by being kind of skeevie, like Creflo Dollar, OR by being too vague, like Joel Osteen.

In a statement Warren recently released, he praised Obama for picking him and kept everything on message.

I commend President-elect Obama for his courage to willingly take enormous heat from his base by inviting someone like me, with whom he doesn’t agree on every issue, to offer the Invocation at his historic Inaugural ceremony.

Hopefully individuals passionately expressing opinions from the left and the right will recognize that both of us have shown a commitment to model civility in America.

The Bible admonishes us to pray for our leaders. I am honored by this opportunity to pray God’s blessing on the office of the President and its current and future inhabitant, asking the Lord to provide wisdom to America’s leaders during this critical time in our nation’s history.

So while I wouldn’t have gone for someone who equated homosexuality with incest and pedophillia, in the end, I think everything will be fine. On the left, people will be offended. On the right people will be confused. (Many are wondering why Warren would give this sort of “endorsement” to someone who is pro-abortion, pro-gay rights. But, obviously, Warren has a plan too.) And if it were me, I probably would have picked someone who either no one’s ever heard of, was a 1960s Civil Rights activist or Osteen because I’m a punk and would not have wanted something as silly as pastor pickin’ to become the drama-rama du jour on Hardball. But that’s me. How did Obama’s latest pastor pick sit with you?

And what IS IT WITH THIS MAN AND PASTORS? I know he’s church shopping in Washington, D.C. Maybe he should let someone else pick this time. I’m sure someone in D.C. can point him and Michelle to the least controversial, all Jesus all, the time, Christian church in D.C.

BTW: As if to balance out Warren, Civil Rights activist, pastor and pro-gay rights Liberal Rev. Joe Lowery is giving the beneditcion. Lowery is best known of late for using the Coretta Scott King’s funeral to call out President Bush. Another moment in the Bush presidency that was hilarious, although (like with the shoe throwing) it was pretty rude to use a funeral to bash our craptastic president. That didn’t mean I didn’t laugh, but ..
. dude. There was a funeral going on.

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79 thoughts on “The Rick Warren Debate

  1. Anonymous says:

    Alicia banks are you not also guilty of selective bashing of Rick Warren from what I have heard he is not a pro-choicer and has equated abortion to the holocaust so where is the outrage for this or his stance on other similar issues. You mention that the bible does not specifically mention gays right? Of course the bible does not use the word gay. Initially gay meant happy but gays took it as their own and no one complained. So when the bible says that men will have unnatural desires and relationship with each other and calls it an abomination, both in the old and new testaments what you are saying is that Christian Pastors should call it something else and pretend that it is not clearly written in the bible and since it does not mention women it means lesbians are in the clear right?You want me to fight for your right by taking away my own right. So I should go against my beliefs so that you can have all what you have ever desired and I can live with sleepless nights because I went against my conscience have I got it right?Perhaps seeing it from my point of view will help you understand where I am coming from. I do not object to any gay doing whatever they want, it is their life and it is none of my business but the word marriage has been a word used between Man and Woman joining since time began in different languages. Now if you can prove that the first time this word was used was for same sex couples then that is fine we will examine it. However can gay people not come up with another word that meets the same specifications and will generally not rile people who are married to the word marriage? They have done it with the address of each other as “partner” instead of Husband and Wife or are you telling me that two gay men can be referred to as Husband and Wife or two gay women?Now regarding the racial similarities, the bible uses slaves and servants interchangeably but I will use the word slave as I believe majority of these people were indeed from conquered worlds and were sold to their owners. A slave was the property of their owner. Now the difference with that time and the American slave trade was that different peoples were conquered and taken into slavery. It means any race could be slaves, slavery was not racially based. Now if you can find anywhere in the bible where it specifically stated that slaves should be Blacks or people with dark skin, I will be very happy to follow up on it. I am not condoning slavery as right and neither did the bible but that was the rule of the jungle at the time. However the world has moved away from most of those practices in the most part though hints still remain. Women are still fighting for equality up to today. The bible also calls the man the head of the family now being a very independent woman that was tough to accept but I accepted it though I understand why it may be difficult for others to accept it and thus do not judge them.Americans were not the first to capture Africans to use them as slaves; the middle east conquered and traded Africans for years through Zanzibar before the Europeans. So though the American slave owners used the bible to justify their atrocities, it is clear that one, they were speaking to people who did not even know how to read much less read the bible and two, they were referring to a broad based reference of the word slavery in the bible to subjugate one particular race. Had one person been educated enough to read the bible at the time their one challenge could have just been where did it say that the people of Senegal or Nigeria should be your slave in the bible and they would have been hard pressed to find any references to support their suppositions.

  2. snob:i love your summation post!thanksbut please know:the very same black gaybashers who g w bush pimped to steal 2 elections are the very same ones that blacked out prop 8i am not mad at white gays who dare to tell that black truthi have been out and gay and a media celeb in bright read states for decadesand it is not easy…the very same black buybull toting hypochristians have given me hell for decades…yet i battle on solo each day…and i would never be a politicobo is proving precisely why that is as he continues to morph into a callous colorless chameleonbutto answer your question:i would have chosenrev irene monroeandrev michael eric dysonpeaceabsee more:SAVAGE SANCTUARIEShttp://www.geocities.com/ambwww/tortn.htm

  3. anon:it is not my responsibility to educate you or to make you lose your hypocrisieshowever, i do suggest that youstudy homosexuality in the bibleyou will find NO support for any gaybashingyou will not even find the word “homosexual” in any biblical text before 1942and you will find NO reference to any homosexuals in the original biblical ancient hebrew textalsothe bible is a mere bookwith 1000s of editings and copyright datesking james was an out homosexualthe bible waspenned by human men who were racist and sexistand that is why the book of deuteronomy could have been penned by a gangsta rapperand that is why the homosexual love stories of ruth and naomi and david and jonathan are so transparently nuancedfyihappy researching!ab

  4. anon:we gays hated warren long before prop 8 or obama’s party…we all choose our battles.so, just as you do not care that warren is a rabid gaybasher.i do not care about his racist fears about dead white babies and his fear of a black planet/a planet filled with too many biracial babies like obama…i am a lesbian and i have never been pregnant. i am childless by choice. abortion is not my battle just as the homohating warren is not yours…fyiab

  5. Anonymous says:

    Alicia Banks it is clear that your claim to having read the bible is the same as you accuse other Christians of doing. You have just picked and chosen whatever you want and thrown it out there to see if you hit something. For your information the bible is not just a book it is a library of books and the word homosexual may not have been used but the act of homosexual was expressed. Bearing in mind that these were spoken in a different language, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, it is very doubtful that the English word or whatever language the word homosexual was derived from was used. Funny enough I am more open minded than you think, but hey you are welcome to your assumptions.However I will add that you should do some more reading of the bible and not just what suits you or whatever arguments you want to present before acting like you are an authority of that written word.Though I have read it several times to be fair not in its entirety (I certainly do not see myself as authoritative with its interpretations), the old testament is not particularly a favourite of mine though I have read most of the books but I can say with certainty that I have read all of the new testament and between the old and new testaments, the new testament is more accommodating to different view points and focuses more on God’s mercy than the lifestyles of individuals that is why I do not judge people, I say you are welcome to whatever you want to do but if you ask me to participate then it changes the equation because all of me participates. If you can provide a biblical argument referencing the bible specifically books and verses where your argument is supported then I am willing to listen and learn but so far I personally have not seen it. However if you want to chuck it up to my ignorance, then do not complain when that ignorance is exercised.

  6. Anonymous says:

    To Alicia Banks”and that is why the book of deuteronomy could have been penned by a gangsta rapper”Alicia the comment above really made me laugh out loud it was really, really funny. I would say you probably mean Leviticus cos that is the one with all the rules and regulations and pretty tedious to read too. Anyhow that was a good one.”and that is why the homosexual love stories of ruth and naomi and david and jonathan are so transparently nuanced.”Alicia if the names you mentioned above were all gay then as far as I know there has not been any proof of it at the very least I will say that your argument is flawed because if nothing else I will say they also went the other way as all these people were married to the opposite sex at one time or the other. So if you want to make a fairer argument say that they were bisexual this way your argument will at least have some truth in it. As for the homosexual relationship charge, do you have further proof of these relationships being other than friendship than your vague conclusions?

  7. Anonymous says:

    1Corinthians 6:9-11Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed , you were sanctified , you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God.

  8. Anonymous says:

    I have to go against Obama on this one. He definitely lost me on the Warren pick. I mean don’t get me wrong, I still love him, and will vote for him again in 4 years, but the Warren pick kinda pisses me off. He could have went with someone less controversial for this SYMBOLIC pick (i mean, when he’s trying to shape policy, THEN he can talk about bringing in all voices, and having Warren there, and Gay leaders, but for this symbolic role, he should have rewarded his base that helped him win, and donated to his campaign).But we also all need to calm down and stop overreacting to everythign that happens in this transition period (i mean let the man pass some policy and actually BE president before we jump down his throat) and that is really what we hired him for, and therefore that is what we should judge him on.

  9. txbabe98 says:

    ok so i just saw the movie Milk(The story of California’s first openly gay elected official, Harvey Milk, a San Francisco supervisor who was assassinated along with Mayor George Moscone by San Francisco Supervisor Dan White) and i understand more why warren’s presence would leave a very bitter taste in many mouths.People have a right to be angry and if they want to not watch or attend the inauguration. that fine, but please do not ruin it for everyone else that has worked SO HARD and poured so much money into his/our vision for this country. The struggles for gays will be there before he takes the stage and right after he prays. the gay community has got to start reaching out into their surrounding communities and start educating people on who they are and UNDERSTAND the religion in the black and brown communities, REALLY UNDERSTAND,because STILL in 2008, so many are just not informed.As a black women who supports equal rights for all, i just hope people do not do anything stupid when PE Obama is sworn in. The whole world has been waiting for this moment….

  10. Anonymous says:

    Txbabe your comments are fair. I understand why the gay community are angry. It is not only because of the world we live in, where you have several wackos who want to make a name for themselves running around, what public figures say is very important because you may not know who is listening. However what does a pastor say then? The bible clearly condemns this lifestyle just as it condemns adultery and fornication. I know many heterosexuals who practice the same lifestyles think being gay is worse but the bible calls sin as sin. There is nothing like a white lie or blue lie, a lie is a lie or one sin being higher than another sin is sin. In this case what do these pastors do? Should they mis-represent the bible to be politically correct? As far as I know their Commander-In-Chief is God so how do they tackle this issues?Also the argument that the bible is not inspired by God does not wash with evangelicals especially since many of them have experienced the leading of God through his word to them. The fact that some people do not believe that witches exist does not make it fact or that the dark powers most practice are not real, this does not make it true especially to those who are oppressed by these same forces. So I will advice the gay community to perhaps attempt to know more about the root of the evangelical resistance if for no other reason but to find out if there is another way around these issues. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a rabbit, maybe there are other ways in which these rights can be given to gays without evangelicals feeling that they are compromising their beliefs.

  11. txbabe98 says:

    Maybe you should go learn how gays fought for rights in the 70s cause you are embarrassing their memory&cause and yourself.fighting the gaybashing with faith/bible bashing will TAKE you NO WHERE AB.

  12. Anonymous says:

    Alicia I do not care if you are a bible scholar so far, you have not given me a single reference in the actual bible that supports your position! You just want me to read other people’s opinions (opinions I might add which have no objectivity to it) and make my conclusions from that. Unfortunately I prefer to read the books myself and make my own inferences. I prefer to build my own opinions based on my own research in these books. You can continue to bash Christians because they do not support your way of thinking that is your perrogative. As for me, if you have some useful information from the bible itself please let me know, if not then I rest my case.

  13. just as those who claim homosexuality is unnaturaland then ignore the documented science that proves homos exist every living species…you have no absolutely no desire to know the truth!!!truth nullifies ALL of your only real desire: to bash gaysbut know this:i owe you nothing!!!!!!!!the seeking of knowledge is a PERSONAL pursuit!hop to it!abTOP 10 BIBLICAL TRUTHS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY Pseudo-christian gaybashers use the bible as a primer for hatred. Hatred is their most revered “godly” value. Homosexuals are their favorite persons to hate. The following are ten reasons not to be fooled by such biblical trickery. Refer to these items to silence any blasphemous gaybashers, INSTANTLY! ( Most have never even read their bibles. It is difficult to read any book while it is closed and being used as a club…): 1. There is no word for homosexuality in the original, ancient Hebrew text. The bible makes NO reference to homosexuals as we know them today, nor as they exist in every living species. From The Church and the Homosexual: “Malakoi and arsenokotai are not synonymous with homosexual. The former were simply debauched individuals, and the latter were probably male prostitutes or those given to anal intercourse, which is not necessarily or exclusively homosexual activity.” From The Good Book: “The King James version of the 1611 text makes no mention of homosexuality or any of its cognates. The first use of the term in an English bible is to be found in the Revised Standard of 1946.” 2. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has NOTHING to do with homosexuality. You will not even find the word “homosexual” in any version of this text. The angels came to destroy the city BEFORE they met the evil mob. Lot offers his virgin daughters to that same mob. Later, these same girls rape Lot. Lot’s wife was destroyed. If this story condemns homosexuality, then it also condones incest and gang rape. And, Lot’s wife was a lesbian. NONE of which is true. From The Good Book: “The Hebrew verb “to know” is rarely used in a sexual sense. It occurs 943 times in the Old Testament and in only 10 of those does it have the sense of carnal knowledge. Sodom is referred to throughout the Old Testament as a place of wickedness and is synonymous with it. But, nowhere does it state that homosexuality was the wickedness in question…Sodomite refers almost exclusively to a male prostitute…to say that homosexual conduct is wrong because the bible says it is, is not to answer, but to dismiss the question….Sex can be productive without being reproductive. Homosexual rape is never to be condoned. It is indeed, like heterosexual rape, an abomination before God. David’s sin of adultery with Bathsheba does not make all heterosexual expressions sinful!” From The Bible, Ezekiel 17:48-50: “The Lord says ‘Your sister Sodom’s sins were pride and laziness and too much food. While the poor and needy suffered outside her door, she insolently worshipped many idols as I watched. Therefore, I crushed her.’” From What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality: “The sin of Sodom was abuse and offense to strangers-insult to the traveler, inhospitality to the needy. The story is no more about sex than it is about pounding on someone’s front door. The bible offers NO valid conclusion whatsoever about homosexuality.” 3. Leviticus, Romans, and Corinthians all refer to “unnatural sex” for HETEROSEXUALS. It is NATURAL for HOMOSEXUALS to engage in homosexual sex.(Also see WHAT IS REAL SEX herein.) Yet, heterosexuals sin daily as gay prostitutes, porno film stars, lewd voyeurs, prison rapists, etc…. From The Good Book: “In Romans…Paul did not discuss gay persons but heterosexual people who performed homosexual acts. To suggest that Paul’s references to excesses of sexual indulgence, involving homosexual behavior, are indicative of a general position in opposition to same-sex eroticism, is as unfounded as arguing that his condemnation of drunkeness implies opposition to the drinking of wine. In Corinthians 1:7, Paul discusses the conjugal relations that ought to obtain between christian husbands and wives. For those whom celibacy was too high a price, he issued his famous edict that it was ‘better to marry than to burn’- not in hell. But with desire for the satisfaction of sex. Nowhere does he mention the sole purpose of such conjugality is the procreation of children.” 4. In Levitcus, homosexuality is an abomination not because it is inherently evil, but because the Gentiles do it. It is, therefore, ritually impure.From What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality: “Leviticus condemns sex as a religious crime of idolatry-not as a sexual offense. Romans suggest that sex acts have no ethical significance whatsoever. Corinthians and Timothy object to specific forms of male prostitution.These books do not refer to homosexuality. They make a general condemnation of moral looseness, lewd, lustful, and lascivious behavior.” 5. “Love Thy Neighbor” is a commandment. For the record, millions of your neighbors are homosexuals. 6. The bible is written by human men. They are not God. They never quote God or Jesus as saying ANYTHING about homosexuals. Jesus makes only one statement that can even be remotely viewed as a reference to homosexuality. Matthew 19:12: “Jesus said ‘Some are born without the ability to marry.’” 7. God is love. Homosexuals are consenting adults who love each other. Gay love is invisible to gaybashers. They see only gay sex. They hunt it down, exclusively, obscenely, curiously, and passionately. Many gaybashers are homosexuals. They will love us when they learn to love themselves. 8. God loves EVERYONE who is GOOD. Some of the best persons in the world are homosexuals. From Dr. Cornel West, in the film "All God’s Children": “If I have one word for fellow Christians, I would ask them to keep their eyes on the love of Jesus, and to not confuse the blood at Calvary with the KoolAid of homophobia in America. KoolAid is thin and shallow and it’s linked to scapegoating…and trashing other people…But the blood, as thick as it is, is open enough for everybody.” 9. There are thousands of REAL SINS in the bible that gaybashers ignore/commit. Selective smoke and blasphemous mirrors will never save their souls or mask their hypocrisy. Unlike the misinterpretations and exaggerations regarding homosexuality, the bible makes SPECIFIC references to many actual sins that gaybashers habitually ignore. (See NUMEROUS biblical references to adultery, lying, judging, dietary laws, gosiping, infidelity, disrespecting authority, betraying family etc….) 10. The bible is not a primer for hatred. The bible is “the good book”. Gaybashers use it exclusively as an evil bat; one they use exclusively to bash the skulls of homosexuals. ——————————————————————————–Religion has destroyed spirituality. Religion is man-made and divisive. Spirituality is divine and unifying. Religion selects the designated few. Sprituality embraces the divine in us all. For more spiritual truth on homosexuality in the bible read:The Good Book-Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart by Peter GomesThe Church and The Homosexual by John McNeillWhat the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality by Daniel HelminiakThe Word is Out-The Bible Reclaimed for Lesbians & Gay Men by Chris GlaserHomosexuality-The Test Case for Christian Sexual Ethics by James HaniganOne More River to Cross by Keith BoykinMisquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart D. EhrmanThe Bible- various human authors and editionsAnd, see the superb and celebrated film on homosexuality and the church in Black America: “All God
    s Children” available by emailing womanvsn@aol.com. True love is unconditional. God truly loves us ALL. Lastly, I quote Chris Glaser, the star of one of my best radio shows ever, from his book The Word is Out: “Ephesians 2:10: ‘We are God’s work of art’…The gay community shakes our confidence in our own beauty by creating the cult of the body beautiful. The church shakes our self worth by creating the cult of heterosexuality and the cult of the perfect saint. But God sees to the heart of the matter and the heart of our matter…” God bless you, where it matters…

  14. “The fact that some people do not believe that witches exist does not make it fact or that the dark powers most practice are not real, this does not make it true especially to those who are oppressed by these same forces.”I hate addressing commenters who refuse to attach an actual name to their posts, but nevertheless, I must represent for some of the non-Christians and Pagans here and say that yes, witches most certainly exist and always have. I am one and am very proud of that fact. I do not practice any “dark powers” (not even sure what that means) and I’m sure that if you were to do even a cursory Internet search of the terms “witch hunt”, “Salem Witch Trials”, “Malleus Maleficarum”, “Satanic Panic”, “Burning Times”, etc., I think you might revise your premise of exactly whom is the victim of oppression here. If you want to address the religious argument evangelicals employ to protest gay marriage, then do so. But try not to bash other non-Christian faiths while at the same time claiming the gay community needs to learn more about the foundations of evangelical opposition to gay marriage. After all, I can easily argue that the personal and political prejudices and fears of King James I of Scotland, included in his commissioned version of the Bible, led to the deaths of thousands thought of as witches, and helped entrench a folkloric distortion of our beliefs and practices which we must obviously still fight against. Perhaps some personal agendas of the authors of the Bible’s books, translation inaccuracies, and the decision-making behind the councils who chose what books were included in the Bible have influenced the evangelical view of homosexuality in the same distorted way. Perhaps there is more to knowing the Bible than simply reading it, particularly depending on what version you choose to read. It’s hard to “misrepresent something to be politically correct” when even its advocates cannot decide which is the definitive version that is being “misrepresented”. And I’m sure more moderate and progressive Christian denominations would be interested to know that they are “misrepresenting” what is also their sacred book and the foundation of their faith, and that their Biblical views are invalid, simply because the evangelical perspective says so.

  15. ditto w.!all of the -isms are related…so hating gays = hating gays witches = hating women = hating sissied…….and now that hateful religions are becoming political doctrines and public laws, we are all seriously doomed…eventually!as this poem states:In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me — and by that time no one was left to speak up.-Pastor Martin NiemollershamepeaceabOUTLOOKhttp://aliciabanks.blogspot.com

  16. Alicia, I am a straight black woman, who is not Christian, completely pro-gay rights, including marriage and everything else, but you do nothing to help persuade me to your side of the argument. I imagine your life as an activist has been fraught with frustration considering your communication style. I’m sure you’ll have some indignant response to this that will cut me down to my proper size and educate me about how little I know about your life or some such. My main point is this: I think it’s perfectly legit for some people to be emotional, angry and upset over Rick Warren, but I think demonizing him is over the top. I think demonizing people who believe what they believe about what the bible has to say about homosexuality isn’t productive. And when did Rick Warren get so powerful that his 10 minutes overshadows Joseph Lowery, Barack Obama, the Gay group that’s participating and his appointment of Nancy Sutly? I’m not saying don’t be mad or even concerned or suspicious. But, Obama’s under the bus? Done? Hillary was my girl anyway? pffttt…with friends like that who needs enemies. To paraphrase Denny Green, Barack Obama is who we thought he was. He’s never been an ideologue. He’s been pretty consistent including his exaggeration that he’s a stalwart defender of gay rights (obviosuly not 100% true), but he’s made that clear. Anyway, I’m rambling. My point is that Rick Warren may prove an ineffective a devil as Barack Obama did for the right wing.

  17. d:funny how nobody sends such snide backhanded complimentary bs to males in media?warren is very ancient toxic news for gays.he is an OLD arch enemy that preceeded obama and prop 8.i do not expect hets/gaybashers who do not know warren to understand.what i deeply resent is how you dare to dismiss why we are so upset and wounded simply because you have no empathy/interest…fyi:i live a trilogy of terror in a world that hates women/blacks/gaysi am ONLY alive because of my warrior style…thanks for the compliment!!!!since i was a full time university student at UIUC at age 12, i have been blessed wirh a rich and charmed life…i appreciate your sincere concern though(ha!..right?)see my bios online…and,i will NEVER worship obama as his nazis do!!!peace,abWho’s Who of American Women 2008-2009 Who’s Who in America 2008 & 2009 Who’s Who in American Education 2007-2008 Who’s Who in the World 2007 Who's Who Among America’s Teachers 2005-2006 Who's Who Among African-Americans 2001 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) Trailblazer Award 1996 Outstanding Young Woman of America 1986 Who's Who Among Students in American Universities & Colleges 1984 UIUC Dean's List 1984 UIUC Senior 100 Honorary 1984 UIUC Black Alumni Association Earl Dickerson Achievement Award 1983 UIUC Black Alumni Association Potential Leadership Award 1982 UIUC 5.0 GPA Award 1982

  18. Anonymous says:

    WinnowillUnfortunately you have taken my comments the wrong way. That is partly my fault anyhow for not expressing myself well enough. The intention of that comment was not to judge anybody or what they believe nor was it to convert anyone to my way of thinking but to illustrate that the spiritual world does exist whether people believe it or not.However in light of your comments, I have decided to comment further. I come from a part of the world where witchcraft is not lighting candles and humming or whatever it is portrayed to be on TV or in certain countries but actual people (witches) who go all out in the destruction of peoples lives for various reasons, to buy some more time for themselves on earth or just simply to become wealthy in life. The first I heard about witches was not from the bible it was from an actual confession of the most unbelievable things I had ever heard and even then I did not believe it until much later.So do not tell me that because ones intentions might not be evil, that if they dabble with the forces of evil they will not get burnt. Now I know nothing about what you practice so I cannot make any objective comments on that but some people who call themselves witches have done things that when you hear them, you begin to understand that certain evil that occurs in this world is not just by accident or even times you think someone died just like that, there was nothing like “just like that” to the death. There are certain forces behind it. As you are a witch I was preaching to the choir in that comment that triggered your other comments because you already know that the spirit world exists.Oh and you may call me Arianna I cannot be bothered to register for now. You see how accommodating I can be:-).I do not judge you nor care what you do, provided it is not to me and mine it is your business and not mine. Your choice and not mine and did I mention completely none of my business? That too.

  19. d:ps:we could not care less about what warren thinks and says about gay marriageif we did, we would never have voted for obamawe hate warren because of all the vulgar murderous insane rabid psycho things he thinks ans says about ALL gays…even single onesi will not lose an iota of peace or a wink of sleep over your denial of my truthsor your aversion to the ways i tell themfyiab

  20. ROFLMAO! I have never been called a Nazi. That just made my day after a particularly rough “customer service” episode with my bank. Go on with your bad warrior princess self!

  21. Anonymous says:

    I don’t hate gay people, I hate the sin and I don’t want to call what they have marriage because marriage is defined by the Bible as a relationship between one man and one woman.

  22. txb et al:viewing one gay biopic does not qualify you to guide a gay movementnahmean?fyii have built my entire career upon slaying buybull toters with their own texts…and there are armies of gay warriors and even gay christians and gay clergy who have done the veryt same slaying for decades before any of us were born….the bible is a weapon of choice of all gay hatersand all warriors must master the very same weapons that their enemies wield…fyiab

  23. txbabe98 says:

    Thats fine AB. but ur going to find yourself pushed aside by your own community. it is a new day. warren is not going anywhere. PERIOD. OBAMA will reach out to ALLL sides whether you like it or not.”we could not care less about what warren thinks and says about gay marriageif we did, we would never have voted for obamawe hate warren because of all the vulgar murderous insane rabid psycho things he thinks ans says about ALL gays…even single ones”ur not making any sense. if you dont care about he thinks….why do you care what he thinks?you are yelling at a brick wall. everyone wants to respect each other and if I respect your wishes to achieve gay marriage and other equal rights, then respect others beliefs that say that it is a sin. You dont think its right, I dont think its right, you wont budge and some of them wont budge.all i know is calling folks a Naziwill get you a nice helping of stfu…

  24. Why must we find something to whine and complain about all the time? LGBT people that want to single out this ONE guy speaking at during this ONE space in time is pretty silly. Are you going to not support Obama now, all because he’s acting like a grown-up politician? Right wingers who are not mad at RW are equally as dumb, coming against RW for accepting Obama’s request. The sad part is that some of you call yourselves Christians. I guess you don’t support Jesus sitting down eating lunch with tax collectors (fiscal conservatives) and sinners. Don’t be a dummy and waste your “mad” on stupid stuff, be a grown-up and make Jan.20 a good day.

  25. txb:your lack of empathy is ruthlessyour vast vocabulary is impressiveand i call them as i see themobamas rabid fans have been acting exactly like nazis!…acting as though anyone who disagrees with him is a race traitor/committing treason/being unfair etc…hitler was “just one guy” with “just one” hatred for jews too…spare me your suicidal arrogant ignorance….fyiab

  26. Anonymous says:

    dkan71 Don’t even bother with Alicia she is making less sense as her rants continue and all it is doing is putting people off. If I did not know better, I would say she is single handedly working very hard to derail the progress gays have made over time because she is a woman on a mission. You either agree with her or you get it. I am sure I will certainly be getting it for this comment and I am curious to see how low she goes.

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