Clutch Magazine: Want A White Guy Or A Guy Who Happens To Be White?
Friday, June 22, 2012 at 10:53AM
Friday for Clutch Magazine I recount the time my friend -- who sometimes struggles to relate to white people -- announced she was going to start dating white guys as if it was a "Coke versus Pepsi" kind of thing. We got a good laugh out of that one, but it touched on a deeper issue. Are you dating someone because they share your values and interests or are you just dating via stereotypes?
Here's a snippet:
There’s this thing that people do when they exoticize the “other;” they lose the human element. White men stop being men and turn into mythical unicorns, devoid of psychological burden. Asian women stop being women, and turn into submissive sex kittens. White women stop being women and become happy-go-lucky, trophy doormats. Black women stop being women and are suddenly sex-crazed, unmarriageable, rage monsters. Black men stop being men and become walking penises. Basically, we’re all prone to be turned into someone’s fetish, reduced to the sum of our stereotypes.
How can someone date white men, but not like white women? They come from the same place, essentially. They share various cultural signifiers and nationalities. For someone to be cool with one gendered half of a race but despise the other leads me to think that even the half they “like” is still based on seeing someone as a “type” and not an individual. White Man is not a brand of Instant Boyfriend you can pick up down at Target. You might happen upon a man who you can share your interests, talents, and life with, who just so happens to be a white guy, but just Perfect White Man? They don’t make that.
Plus, the ability to make meaningful, long-term friendships across the racial divide will serve you well if you do get serious with a white guy. After all, I’m sure that guy will have family and friends who will possibly look a lot like him. How are you going to get along with all of them if you can’t relate to them (and if they can’t relate to you) as a human being? You’re not dating people in a vacuum. You’ll have to deal with the reality of interpersonal relationships called “your people’s people” at some point.
Reader Comments (40)
Sorry Danielle, but this is total BS. I Probably haven't had a white female friend since grade school. Almost all my friends are either white men or black women. Yet, I'm married to a white man and have been since 1999. This notion that white men and white women come from the same place is just as specious as the same notion when apllied to nlack men and women. We are socialized differently both in the home and within society in general. Using friendships with white women as some type of litmus test for one's ability to mate/date interracially is ridiculous. After all, there are plenty of women of all races who have no female friends at all, yet no one would question their ability to date men.
I agree that exoticizing people is wrong, and the whole "where the white men at?" mentality is fucked up from the floor up.
@ Roslyn
It's really more about how my friend still saw all white people as just white people in a bucket. It's not about if someone has a white friend of any gender, it's whether you're actually open to seeing people of different races as individuals. If you can make friends with people, regardless of their racial background, it's an indicator that you'll see them as people. Also, my friend -- at the time -- declared a strong dislike for all white women. Dislike and just not having one as a friend incidentally are two different things. I imagine you're not totally closed off to the idea of having a white female friend, you just don't happen to have one. That's very different from being openly hostile to the notion of white women.
I agree with the article. I think that the average person--would want to have the ability to socially interract with their partner's friends or family....it's a very important dynamic in any relationship. Having a great support system--FOR BOTH people--would be vital because life does happen. If they do end up married and having kids--that becomes EVEN more critical because it does take a village to raise well adjusted kids. It woud be one sided to have friends in just one group, whether just white or just black--if you're in an interracial marriage. I also agree that the friend probably should try to develop mentally--and get to know some white females--many of which are JUST THE SAME as black females. (in terms of what women are like/need/want etc)...so, the barrier would probably be if you're trying to be friends with someone who is SOCIALLY not in the same bracket. For example: if you're a rich black woman..you probably would not relate to a poor white woman--and vice versa.
Good post and I totally got where you were coming from. I've never tried to fool myself into thinking I can or even would ever want to date white men. There is a huge step between engaging in simple interactions, going to school/work, or even being a casual friend with someone of a different race and sharing yourself mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually with that person. It doesn't matter if you can be "cool" with a tiny subset if you know you have issues with the whole group. Once I almost got involved with a biracial guy but stopped short because I realized I preferred to only acknowledge his black side. When I did meet his mother it was uncomfortable (although it shouldn't have been since I knew he was biracial) to see a white woman ,well, mothering this brown skin man. My reaction was a big sign to me that I don't need to go any further with this guy unless and until I address my own issues. If that's the type of reaction some of us get dating half black biracial people, dating a straight up ordinary white person would bring on an astronomical amount of issues. I believe if you are honest with yourself and realize you can't accept someone for who he/she is completely and everything that comes with that person (family members, community, experiences, memories, etc... ), you have no business being in a romantic relationship with him/her. Like you said, you can't date a person in a vacuum. That old joke about "when the revolution comes, I'll kill her first" is not an acceptable way to reconcile any internal ambivalence, aversion, or dissatisfaction over the state of black/white American affairs with your romantic life.
I have dated other races including my own but there's something about white folks that rubs me the wrong way despite (or maybe due to?) my growing up in a completely integrated environment. I've known too many black people now dating whites who shouldn't even be within 10,000 miles of one... and vice-versa.
Interesting post Danielle. I usually browse your blog, but I felt inclined to post since interracial dating is something that strikes me on a personal level. Honestly---your friend to me sounds unique in her philosophy---or at least her perception of relationships with White women comparative to dating White men. Most black women I know who exclusively date outside of their race (including myself) have many White girlfriends. Growing up in Virginia Beach, VA I only had black girlfriends. I never really had a close White girlfriend. I moved to New York City and my ride-or-die girlfriend just so happened to be White. Of course--I also had a close Asian girlfriend, Hispanic and Black---I did live in a melting pot after all.
I now live in Wilmington, NC which has a demographic of over 80% Caucasian. As a result, the majority of my girlfriends are White. I tell you all of this to make this point. Anyone who dates outside of their race for the most part (your friend perhaps is the exception) simply dates them for myriad of reasons that have nothing to do what that man has in common with the opposite gender, I don't look at a White guy and think---hmmm? So I wonder what my girlfriend Kristy would think about him? She's White--he's White--therefore they must have tons in common right? Plus you have to ask yourself what KIND of White guy are you dating? Are you dating a John Mayer type or a Jon B type? There's a significant difference.
The White men I have dates have predominately aired on the side of a Jon B type and trust me, the only Caucasian thing about many of my exes was simply the color of their skin.
So I love the article! Keep posting topics like this, because I love this kind of conversation. Hope you friend becomes a little open-minded about her relationships with White women and decrease any stereotypes about White men. They're a myriad of types just as there are Black men.
J.
Actually Danielle, my choice is a deliberate one. Just never really clicked with white women. I don't dislike them in general, just never met any that I had much in common with. I find the socialization that white women receive is just annoying as all hell. I've met a few exceptions, but I've never met a hetero white woman who I got along with long term. Now, at nearly fifty I'm pretty much done with trying to train people.
Why is it that black women overanalyze everything about interracial dating? It is draining. A lot of white women who date black men are straight up racists and snobs and dont like black women. I bet that you will never see on white blogs questions about why white women dont like black women. Give it a break!
@ Caprice
I can't speak for everyone else, but my article was in the vein of all my self-help articles which is about being open-minded and working towards healthier relationships. I suppose if no one cares about whether a relationship is healthy or not they can date that way, as the alleged white women you described. But my advice is the same for them. If they want to have a healthy relationship with a guy of another race, they need to actually be able to get along with members of that race as if they marry, they'll be in-laws. Everyone should see everyone as individuals, which was the point of this post. Just because certain people expose bad behavior doesn't mean that this is behavior we should all emulate or encourage.
If other people are awful is the only option for us all to be awful or should we encourage ourselves to be above it and work towards things that are healthy and positive in our lives?
I've been a long -time lurker on this site but I HAD to comment on this. I am really glad someone finally brought this up because I think there are many sisters who think like your friend. I have noticed some black women who are in interracial relationships particularly with white men, key word **some** not all or even most, but some, speak of their relationships as if being with a white man is like finding a magical unicorn. They sometimes make it seem like they are with the man because he is white rather than because they like him as a person. I just mean that some of them describe these men like they are so amazing and awesome solely based on their skin color. I've even seen this with some black woman getting into this fixation with Asian men, particularly Korean ones. It is great that black women are opening themselves up to dating men of other ethnicities. But I think this article provides a great learning moment for us as we befriend and date men of other ethnicities to remember not to view or judge them based on racial and cultural stereotypes.
On a personal note, I haven't dated any white men yet but if or when I do, what I wonder about is whether we will have any shared interests. Some of the white guys I've encountered like video games, comic books, techno music and hiking, all of which I am not into. Although of course, that doesn't mean that all white men like those things or that there aren't white guys I would have other things in common with. sooo yeeeaah....
Hmmm, I'm really struggling with the notion that not wanting to have white female friends means my relationship is unhealthy. I've had the same inlaws for years and we get along great. I see them a few times a year and it's all cool. Maybe it's because I married in my mid-thirties, but for me people who don't live in my house have no power to make my marriage healthy or unhealthy. I don't hate or even dislike white women, I just find the level of self-absorption many of them display far too annoying to tolerate at this point in my life. Are all of them that way? I'm sure they're not, but I don't care enough to find out as it has NO IMPACT on my life.
This reminds me of a rather bizarre conversation I had with a black man once. He said my husband couldn't possibly love me because he didn't love my brothers and uncles. I was like, Negro please. I don't love all my male relatives. Why on earth would I hold my husband to a standard I don't have for myself or any black man I've dated?
My husband is required to love me and our children, and he's done a damn good job of that for fifteen years. He is required to be polite and respectful to my kin, unless they're disrespectful to them. Then it's MY job to put them in check.
As for shared interests, my husband I don't have many aside for music and good food. He's an avid outdoorsman. My idea of fun is a luxury hotel with a five star restaurant. What we do have is shared VALUES. My husband is an honorable man who is honest to a fault. We both value loyalty. I don't have to check my back. I know he's there and always will be. That's far more important to me than the fact that he thinks The Big Lebowski is one ofthe greatest movies ever.
Wouldn't it be great if white men spent half as much time celebrating black women as do celebrating them. When magazines like Maxim amd FHM make their lists of the 100 most desirable women they almost completely ignore black women. Even the "black woman hating" King magazine had over 40 black women in it's top 50.
@ Roslyn
I honestly don't think the post and the situation I was referring to fits your relationship, as I was writing about a friend, who at the time, had deep seated issues with white people as a whole and was merely talking about dating white men as a way to reject black men she'd been routinely let down by, but ... as what was written in the article ... when she did date a white guy she couldn't handle any conversation at all about race with him because she struggled with relating to him as an individual.
That's all the article is really about -- people who can't relate to people of other races as individuals. The friend test is just that -- a test -- that tells the difference between who is serious about getting to know someone as a person versus someone who sees someone as a "type." Obviously you don't see your husband as a type, you two get along just fine. My response about "healthiness" was in reference to a previous comment that made it sound OK if white women with racist views continue their views into a relationship. I even made the point in my reply to Caprice that the reason for being open-minded is that you'd have to deal with your spouses friends or in-laws and you wrote that you get along well with your extended family. So obviously, you don't have this problem. You simply just don't have white female friends. Again, it's about an over all hostility based on race as opposed to "we have different values or were socialized differently or I've never met anyone that I vibed with, but that doesn't mean I'm diametrically opposed to their existence."
My point to Caprice was that if you are a racist and a white woman -- but you date and/or marry a black guy -- I would question whether that relationship would end well over time when you have a hatred for different people and just see your black boyfriend/husband as the magical unicorn exception. Maybe it will be fine. Maybe it won't. I'm of the mind that racism is a corrosive force that holds us back in life, so that was the stand point I was writing from.
But, again, I don't think this relates to your particular situation at all, as you don't seem to have these issues with thinking your husband is a magical unicorn in a land full of awful white racists and terrible black men. On the contrary, everything you described sounds perfectly fine and is the exception to someone who has a very narrow view on race, but assumes dating outside one's race will solve their issues.
Hi, Danielle. I'm a white guy who is completely baffled by the "what do you do with your hair at night" thing.
In the first place, I've never known any guy (white, black, or green, straight or gay) who would be curious about that. But, more importantly (and I don't mean to be insensitive with this), why is it offensive?
- Glenn V
@ Glenn
In of itself the question is not offensive. The problem is the unintentional ignorance that causes questions about hair, diet, traditions, history, etc. to come up can be problematic for individuals who don't feel like being walking-talking ambassadors for all things blackness. Also, when people, like my friend, actually take offense the offense is rooted in she cannot go through life not knowing anything about white people if she expects to do things like "function daily in American society," but many, many white people can choose to avoid the question of race altogether in their lives if they wish. Limiting their encounters of people different from them to the bare minimum, but still having almost every avenue of advancement and success still be available to them. Even if someone finds the site of a black bus driver, waiter or DMV clerk offensive they can simply move out to almost any rural area in the United States and pretty much avoid anyone not white into perpetuity. So it's more about the inherent unfairness of growing up and living in a minority-majority culture.
It's sort of like how, if someone chooses, they can live in a bubble where they only surround themselves with people like themselves who think like themselves. Black people can -- to a certain extent -- do the same, but TV, music, all of popular culture, film, fashion, property ownership, most academia and any high achieving career worth having means you'll have to leave your segregated community and deal with someone who does not look like you. But a white person can live in a white bubble and it will almost have no impact on their success level at all as there are plenty of white people in the majority in all of those places mentioned.
Also, I've had plenty of white people ask me about my hair. I don't care typically, because I know folks are just curious. But I can understand why for others it's offensive and you wish they'd just Google that shit on their own.
Hey Snob,
I read your article and understood your angle. I didn't agree with all of it, but as you always you do, you made me go "hmmm?" I've noticed black men don't have the same hesitancy of dating out as many black women. If your friend was a brotha, would you tell him to befriend a white dude before dating white women?
I agree that it's ridiculous to treat white men (or any man) like a magical unicorn. Frankly, I've seen more black women treat black men that way than I have any other, but I also think treating them like alien beings is also wrongheaded. There would be no need for a litmus test, or any type screening if white guys were being seen as just guys. As for the hair thing, I can't say I've dealt with all that much stupidity from white men. I think guys in general know thatvwomen have beauty rituals, after all, they have moms and sisters, nd they aren't too interested. Now, I do have to say, I'm pretty low maintenance. I donn't tie my hair up for bed, though I do slerp on a satin pillowcase. And even though I've big chopped twice in our relationship, my husband has given me far more odd looks over the green polish I'm rocking on my toes right now.
Bottom line for me is this; stop "otherizing" people. Next!
@ Cocoa
If my male friend said the same things as my female friend -- that he basically saw all white people in buckets of "white men are all jerks, but some white women are perfect unicorns" then yes. The issue is about how if you actually are annoyed or even have a deep dislike for most white people due to our history of race in this country, you might be walking into a disaster by thinking you will meet the one magical white woman unicorn that will wash away all your burden. Like I said, maybe it'll work out. Maybe you'll just end up heavily resenting your wife because she doesn't have the burden of being black. I've dated men who couldn't even handle the light skin/dark skin divide among their own people. I'm terrified of how that would play out with a white woman.
I agree with Roslyn, Caprice, Glenn & CocoaFly--
I've never had close friendships with white women and I'm in a healthy, loving relationship with a white man. I don't hate white women anymore than white women who date/marry black men, but don't have close black female friends hate black women. If there's a connection between achieving a loving, successful relationship with an individual of another race & needing to have same-gender friends of your partner's race, I'm missing it. And so are many other interracial couples.
The idea that black women who date nonblack men must do that thing 10 times better & be 10 times more socially conscious than all other humans who date interracially is oppressive. Actually it's policing of black women's lives.
Also "hair as separate & alien being" is ONLY in the minds of SOME black women. Men of every color could care less about the state of women's hair & hair care.
I also understand that this is an article about your friend---one INDIVIDUAL black woman.
@ All
You know? I get that everyone got fixated on what I told my friend who has no white friends who got caught up in the unicorn white man theory, but the totality of the post (which also includes a story about a white co-worker who thought all black men were sexual Popsicles for her to fantasize about) is about "othering." If you are in a happy relationship with someone of a different race, but have no friends of that different race it does not mean something is wrong with you. This post is for people who actually have pure contempt for the race of people they're trying to date "out" with because they've accidentally bought into various unicorn penis theories. It is not about you if you don't actively dislike the race of your partner or solely judge your partner by their race. I'm sorry that wasn't clear enough, but the friend thing is a small part of a larger story about stereotyping and othering of people, which was the point. Even the title is "Want A White Guy or A Guy Who Happens to Be White," which indicates that it's about people who think they are enlightened but are still looking at people through at stereotype lens. If you don't have this problem we're actually on the same page and agree because this article was not for you.
This is one paragraph out of many and it was a direct rebuttal of my friend who is not as open-minded when it comes to white people. It is not a personal attack on everyone who wants to date outside of their race. It is a comment on people who turn other people into the exotic other.
I'll still continue to approve comments, and everyone else is free to debate this, but the only thing I care about is othering, so if you want to talk about othering, I'll talk about that. But the post isn't "all black people who date outside need a white friend" because that was never what more than 700 word post I wrote for Clutch was about. I don't even say those words. The whole time I'm talking about stereotyping -- as in my friend stereotyped all white women as if they're some monolith of Sex in the City extras.
But you're free to comment on that, but for the last time, that's not and never was what this post was about. It's what one paragraph, directed to my friend, was about. So, if you want to debate that one paragraph, I've pretty much said all I'm going to say about it. I don't even have anything left to say, but to keep repeating myself over and over and over.
Snob,
Basically you 're saying if you have issues with white people as a whole, it would be difficult to be in a relationship w/ one. Those issues would come up for you. Right? That I understand. I dated a brotha who did not get along w/ his mother and grandmother and as a result had disdain for black women. He would always tell me, "You're not like other black women." I was his magic unicorn. But if I got mad at him (this includes NO yelling or neck rolling) or wanted to wear braids, or wanted to cook a pot of greens, I was Like Shanaynay. If I did anything that reminded him of a stereotypical sista, I was like Shanaynay to him. He could not let go of his issues w/ black women no matter how good I was to him. I hope I am the last black woman he dates b/c he has issues w/ sistas and it's sad when you're own people label you.
I admit for me, traveling and meeting people of other cultures has made me comfortable w/ dating out. But that's me.
Boy..hit dogs do holler. lol
I've never seen such a group to say MY Interracial relationship so SOOOO healthy even though I feel some kind of way 'bout white women or have never had a white friend.
Ya'll clearly missed the point...
The friend thing was just a LITMUS TEST for a friend who clearly is not fond of white people in general. She CLEARLY has some deep seeded issues with white people in general so the idea that she'd be able to date a white man was laughable - the "could you be friends with a white lady" was just a way to point out that if the mere IDEA of befriending a white woman made her make the stank face is a pretty good sign that she likely wouldn't really be able to date a white man either.
Hell I've had and have white female friends, white male friends and anyone who knows me knows good and well that the idea of me seriously dating a white man is laughable - not gonna happen. But even with my friendships I COMPLETELY understood where The Snob was coming from.
SMH.
@ Cocoa
Exactly. That's what I was addressing. The phenomenon of people who have stereotypical views that when they meet the exception they don't think that maybe their views are wrong, you're just a unicorn upon which they wait for you to inevitably "fail" you by falling into so-called "stereotypical" behavior. Which is why an innocent question can turn into an accusation of insensitivity or even racism if you are judging people by a stereotype versus evaluating them on a case-by-case basis.
@ The Curvy Girl
I totally get why some folks are sensitive about the subject. People can get really judgmental and shamey when it comes to dating and race so folks are understandably on the defense, but I honestly thought I had come from the most benign angle ("maybe you shouldn't date outside of your race just yet if you still hate individuals who are of that particular race. Get more open minded, make some friends and get better acquainted with cultures different from your own.") But it just turned into something else altogether.
People are allowed to draw whatever conclusions they wish, but I was most certainly not saying folks couldn't date X unless you also befriended Y. It was a lot more like if you hate X, but are looking for a unicorn version of it, maybe you should ease yourself into that culture to gain some healthy perspective so you're seeing individuals, not just magical penises and vaginae.
But that got lost somewhere.
@ Snob -- Thanks for the clarification.
Danielle, I love ya and I love your writing, but even with the explanation about your friend's particular issues, I can't roll with this. Yes, I am in an interracial marriage and I find it interesting when women who aren't in such relationships speak with authority about what it's like to have such a relationship and what obstacles will be there.
I'm with Roz... hair has never been an issue in my marriage, went out with plenty of guys who never dated a black woman before and I don't have a ton of white female friends. None of this had a role in what actually transpired when I got involved in these relationships and it sure didn't hurt me when I found one who I wanted to marry.
Everyone's going to have a different experience with interracial dating (or choose not to date interracially at all), but I wish that advice given to black women on this issue would actually come from black women, who, you know, are in happy interracial relationships and can speak from experience.
I'm in an IR and our environment is predominately White. I know plenty of WW, although not really close friends, but we socialize frequently due to our kids going to school together. I get what you are trying to say though-- the bottom line is just being able to relate to people as people. ANY relationship can have it's challenges, race and culture aside, but it's mainly about people wanting to make it work and putting forth the effort. I think that's the main thing. I have observed that some of the WW I know who are in IR relationships with BM tend to make more of an effort to be friendly with me once they know that I'm in an IR relationship. Maybe they see me as someone who wouldn't have a problem with their relationship-- but I wouldn't either way. I'm cool with everybody who is cool with me.