Dating Is Not A Democracy (Menfolks)
Monday, March 8, 2010 at 9:00AM
"As much as I may miss the thrill of dating, sleeping with, meeting someone new, I regularly thank my wife for not being crazy. When we are out, one of our favorite things is to pick out the couple who is dating and thank goodness they aren’t us," Joe, Married In Maryland.
It's ugly out there. But then, when hasn't it been?
Ever since the day your pa stopped rationing off your hymen for a couple of goats ... wait. It wasn't cool then either, was it? Ever since Massa ... wait? That was kind of messed up too, right? Damn. It's really hard to romanticize the lives of women past. The lives of women who had few choices -- if they ever had a choice at all. We fought and died for choices. And now we have them. Unfortunately, dating is not a Democracy. Heading out on the open market means your destiny (and happiness) is in your own hands. Maybe you find the right guy/girl for you. Maybe you don't. No one wants to hear about the "don't" part. We all want to believe there's somebody for everybody. That's what our grandmother told us, after all. But it's not that simple. It never has been. Having choices means sometimes you choose other things over settling down. Maybe you choose your career. Maybe you choose the thrill of the chase. Or sewing the seeds of your youth. Maybe you choose to spend years of investing in things that go nowhere. That's the beauty of choice. You can choose something wonderful for you, or you could choose something so wrong you pray to God to let it be right.
Some try to pin the "marriage crisis" as a black thing. I don't believe that. It's more of a "cultural shift thing." As people become more mobile, have more choices, as gender roles bend and flex, as women try to find their way in a world where they finally aren't completely held down by their gender, a few eggs were going to get broken (or go unfertilized). This means there will be winners and losers -- male and female -- all around. Things will be ugly out there for the time being. But remember ... they used to be a lot worse. You could be married, right now, to the dude you met in kindergarten because your parents knew his parents and they got together a long time ago and decided to make a business transaction called "your future." And you didn't have a choice. That doesn't mean all is fair now. Nothing is fair about dating -- capitalism-style. The race goes to the fairest, the swiftest, the most talented, the richest, the best looking, etc., etc. Everyone else gets the big squeeze. You're too broke/fat/boring/ugly to love!
I, of course, blame television. Every dude isn't supposed to end up with a Madonna-whore Halle Berry and every girl isn't supposed to get their own person baller-reformed-thug-with-a-heart-of-gold-and-a-wallet-of-gold-too-unicorn-combo. But if every guy is holding out for Halle and every girl is holding out for a unicorn, shit is going to get really frustrating really fast.
That said, I asked some of my male readers on Facebook to share with me their stories of dating and marriage in this Brand New Age of mobility and freedom -- the good, the bad and the demonstrably hideous. I did this because I was really tired of the circular logic going on with women opining why-oh-why so many black women were unmarried. No one wants to hear the unsexy answer of "CULTURAL SHIFT!" That's no fun. It must be because all the brothers are chasing white women. Or all the brothers are in jail. Or we spend too much time chasing brothers and should chase other men. Or other men don't want us because of racism. Or men of our own race don't want us because they're full of self-loathing. Or we are too educated and accomplished. Or we are too pushy and mean. Or we are inheritly unloveable by nature of our ethnicity. Or ...
It goes on and on. So, we can continue to throw random shit to the wall and see what sticks, or we can get real and have a conversation. So I asked these three fellows to contribute to the conversation. Some of what they had to say I agree with it. Other parts of it I didn't. But the important thing is to not live in a vacuum with your hands over your ears screaming "I can't hear you." No one woman is the same. No one man is the same. We all have a story to tell and these are the stories of three men, two who are married and one who is not, on what it's like out there in the age of what is really a cultural crisis in America.
The key is to remember, as I paraphrased from one of my contributors in our latter conversations about the "marriage crisis" -- dating is not a Democracy. In the world of choice -- just like in capitalism -- someone is going to pull the short stick.
If you're a woman, don't get too stressed out. Chances are there's a single dude just as frustrated and annoyed as you are. Whether you want to date him or not that's really up to the two of you.
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"Marriage is a fight to the death, before which the wedded couple ask a blessing from heaven, because it is the rashest of all undertakings to swear eternal love; the fight at once commences and victory, that is to say liberty, remains in the hands of the cleverer of the two." -- Brody, Married in D.C.
"Brody"
Married and living in Washington, D.C., Brody is a black man in his early 30s and relatively content. The marriage crisis is something more of magazines articles than his reality. He's happy. When I asked him how he was doing in an age when most black men are popularly depicted as being in jail or utterly worthless, he said he, "Life is pretty good. I don't let those above mentioned stereotypes bother me because they don't apply to my life style. I'm a young, educated black professional. I think it's unfortunate that black men get such a bad rap when there are so many of us that are good."
Brody has been married for five years with one daughter and another child on the way. He's hoping for a boy this time. He got married at 27 to the wife because it felt right.
"I met a woman I wanted to be committed to," he said. "With women previous to my wife there was always something holding me back. I can't even explain what it was but I got uneasy when I thought about spending the rest of my life with this woman. So I enjoyed them in the mean time, they we're cool to hang our with ... and other things ... but I knew it wasn't going anywhere. To women I would say this: If a man isn't trying to lock something down with you in the form of a committed, exclusive relationship with 3 months (4 months MAX) he's not interested. Move on if you're serious about being in a committed relationship and eventually married."
This was something also repeated by the other men I spoke to. When it came to finding a wife, they all said, "they just knew." And it wasn't a case of "just knowing" after years and years of dating. In most cases of the men I spoke to, "they just knew" rather quickly. Even my own father "just knew" my mother was the on after six months.
Brody, a lover of black women -- married to a black woman -- said his main concern for many black women (and this is really sage advice for anyone) was that they were wasting too much time on people who were never going to fully commit to them. That in some cases they'd been waiting on a ring from men who'd strung them along for five years or more.
This means, according to Brody, that they often miss out on opportunities, other men who are interested in them, because they're still waiting on their long-term love to pop the question.
"For black women me and my friends coined a phrase called the '30 yard dash,'" he said. "Meaning women start panicking and rushing to get married before 30 and will start to settle just to get married. I mean I have a 28-year-old female friend right now who's proposed to the same man TWICE!. I mean DAMN, how many ways does a nigga have to say NO?"
Brody's biggest advice he could give to anyone who wants to get married sooner rather than later -- "Don't waste time." They need to get serious about it -- now -- and to not bother with anyone who doesn't want to get settled down. They won't change. It's not going to change.
"More black women could be married if they wanted to but they're wasting time on guys that aren't interested," Brody said.
As for the specific issue of the so-called unpopularity of black women in the dating market (more on that in a differen't post). Brody prefaced this next statement by saying that he loves black women. After all, he married one. But there is that old stereotype that rears its head from time to time.
"First I'd like to point out I love black women and I married a black women, but I think black women can come off as angry and black men don't like that. Not all black women but a lot of them. I've always prefered black women and was never into the white/Asian/Latina girl thing. I've dated women of other races but I've mostly dated black women," he said.
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"As Langston Hughes used to say, you have to laugh to keep from crying," Marc, single in Houston
"Marc"
Hooked on marriage crisis has not worked for Marc. He thought he'd be married by his late 20s (he's now 38), but so far, no ring for no future wives. He feels marriage and children are the final stages of adulthood and is a strong believer in the institution, "there must be something to it I remember back at the Million Man March, the consistent message was that traditional family is the building block of civilization. That said, I believe the Hip-Hop generation has tried to redefine the institution, and it's backfiring badly."
Marc describes himself as "single but actively looking." He'd like to find Mrs. Marc, but as many will agree ... it can get a little horrifying out there.
"It's really scary. I tell my married friends all the time to be thankful they're out of the rat race," he said.
Marc, being single and a black man, used to get "really pissed off" when he would hear or read about how there are "no good black men." As a black man and considering himself to be worth a damn he was offended.
"It just smacked of unbelievable arrogance and narcissism, which bordered on idolatry," he said. "Everyone -- and I mean everyone -- has options. We may not like the ones we have, but I'm sorry. That's life. If beggars can't be choosers, choosers can't play victim. Everyone has to make trade-offs. What if I applied similar criteria based on weight? Seventy-five percent of black women are classified as overweight or obsese. You don't hear us running around talking about 'Ain't no good black women out there! Seventy-five percent are one Big Mac from a heart attack or diabetes!"
As for the lack of black people being married, he charged that some women were more interested in the wedding than actual marraige.
"I had a girlfriend a couple of years ago who, I realized, was more interested in the wedding, as opposed to the subsequent marriage. The former is the status & superficiality part. The latter is the giving up of the independence, sacrifice, compromise, and hard work that our generation isn't accustomed to," Marc said.
While he isn't buying into the marriage panic dramarama, Marc is someone who would like to be married, but isn't. He told me about some of his past relationships and why they didn't lead to a trip down the altar.
I've talked marriage with three women in my life. First one was in my 20s. We'd known each other most of our lives and our families for all intents and purposes 'arranged' for us to be married. Living in NYC at the time, I wasn't ready yet and we broke up. The second was a non-black woman who treated me as well as I'd ever been treated, but realized that the racial factor was problematic for me. She's still the most humble, highly educated, (and among the most attractive) women I've dated, and knowing what I know now, I might have acted differently. The last, and subsequent, woman I had the conversation with literally got cold feet.
Marc feels that a soulmate is born "not made," referring to a statement former Essence editor Susan Taylor once made about some women being "obsessed with status, stuff and self." While that might mean some women are materlistic, Marc was reluctant to say that was the case with most. But he did say this:
I believe the man is the head of the household, e.g., the quarterback of the team. No quarterback wants to look down the line and see that his wide receiver is Terrell Owens, who is only concerned with his personal stats, and will trash the QB and team to the media unless he's getting all the shine, whether it's best for the team or not. There's quite a few female T.O.'s our there, who are nothing like their predecessors.
If you're in any city with a million or more black people and you can't name five single guys you could see yourself with, I dismiss you as not being serious. Gloria Steinem noted that women have done a great job raising their daughters to be the men they wanted to marry when they were younger, except, I'd note that unlike men, they haven't learned the man's mantra: quote the Rolling Stones 'you can't always get what you want/but if you try, you just might find/ you'll get what you need.'
As for the marriage crisis, Marc thinks people should stop freaking out and giving it so much credit. Accusing the whole debacle as a ruse to appeal to "a certain victim mentality that many sisters have settled into since they rolled the dice -- by holding out for something better -- and lost. I honeslty think if sisters fessed up and took some accountability for the decisions they've made and acted accordingly, they'd be much happier and attractive to the type of man they say the want -- if they'd open up their eyes."
This doesn't mean there aren't predators a foot, taking advantage of the perceived disadvantage, but he feels that things are more complex.
There are some straight ruthless brothers out there and they've become adept at blending in with the civilians. I'm talking about guys who will push up on multiple women at church, claiming that God sent you to them; or married cats playing single or telling women that they'll leave their wives for them. Those guys tend to be the most aggressive (since they already have women, they're already ahead and just playing with house money), and regular cats just choose to move on rather than compete. (In Biz School strategy class, they taught us that if you can't be #1 or #2 in a market, you need to exit!).
While he's not a big believer in the whole CRISIS nature of it, even Marc feels the pressure to get married. He says most men do. There is this matter of having some grandkids while your parents are still alive enough to play with them. And while Marc says he prefers black women, he thinks that liking doesn't equal a monopoly. He has dated outside his race before and feels that some black men who have chosen to do so is because they've felt slighted before and moved on. He also doesn't hold much stock in the belief that there is a paucity of educated/eligible black men out there.
In the 30 - 39 year old age range, I'd challenge you to show me any credible, non-anecdotal data that the ratio is even two to one. Most of my friends in my age range will tell you that during our professional school days (MBA for many of us, engineering or accounting for others), the schools were majority black men. The smartest women picked their husbands out there. Otherwise, the data behind these ratios is on par with Iraqi WMDs. I think you're starting to see brothers with blogs and even sistas begin to 'clap back.' While part of me thinks 'alright, it's on now,' I do realize this type of diatribes and monologues aren't productive. At the end of the day, the only things standing between black women and the alter are their egos and a date. I'll leave you with the scene from Skip Gates' documentary 'America Beyond the Color Line' where he flat out asks the buppie if he'll marry a Black woman, and he pauses, then responds, 'well, I like to think so.'
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"Joe"
While getting married before 28 is "a mistake" per Joe, Married in Maryland, married life has worked well for him. He has his wife, a daughter and a nice home.
"I like to say I’m the kind of guy the Republican Party would love to have read some of their literature, if only 'must demean and insult people of color at every opportunity' wasn’t a plank of their platform," he joked.
For Joe, marriage is "a wonderful institution that everyone should have the opporotunity to enjoy." He got married at 34 and proposed the year prior. He always knew that he would eventually get married and despite the fact that he's off the market he can see how "scary it is out there."
As much as I may miss the thrill of dating, sleeping with, meeting someone new, I regularly thank my wife for not being crazy. When we are out, one of our favorite things is to pick out the couple who is dating and thank goodness they aren’t us.
Joe doesn't see the so-called "marriage crisis" as a black only issue. "Any woman in her 30s who wants to get hitched is going to feel the pressure," he said, adding that most of his wife's friends are not married. In some cases he blames the lack of shame in having a child out of wedlock. "While I consider 'baby momma' and 'baby daddy' phrase with negative connotation, a large group of people don't. I don’t want to say this applies to all black people, but three of my male friends from college are happily married -- and not to the mothers of their respective (first) children. The idea that we have to marry the woman we got pregnant doesn’t really fly these days. I think it is a good thing (to have choice). It would be even better if we didn’t have the accidental pregnancies in the first place."
The marriage crisis is not real for Joe (he is married, after all). And he says he's seen more freaked out white women than black.
Like Marc, Joe wonders if some women see being married as the "goal" but not part of the "destiniation.
The ring, the wedding, etc. My wife was specific on the type of ring she wanted (when I got in touch with her friend to get an idea of what she wanted, the only thing she didn’t mention is the store I should buy it in), but I knew if I could only afford a quarter of that, she would happily accept it. She would want an upgrade at some point, but being my wife was more important than having a big rock. Same with the wedding; she wanted a big wedding with all the trappings, but if we had to roll to the justice of the peace she would do it.
I’ve been lucky that none of the women I dated seriously were demanding to get married while we were together. I don’t know how I would react to that; although I was fine with the idea of getting married in my 20s, I didn’t feel financially secure enough to be married. I don’t think women factor that in to a man’s resistance to getting hitched. As much as I understand a married couple is a team, I need to bring something to the table before I put on the uniform.
As for those who feel the marriage crisis is real, Joe has some advice -- don't listen to interlopers. From Oprah to Essence to your girlfriends, Joe feels that the only people who truly know a relationship are the two people in it.
"To this day, I get annoyed when my wife makes a suggestion that I know came directly from the latest Oprah episode, even if it is a good one," he said. "A lot of men know the 'bitter girlfriend syndrome. I knew to indentify that friend in my now-wife's circle and would mention subtly that she may not be the best place for advice when her name came up. That is not to say make yourself an island where no opinions may tread. And if you aren’t in a relationship or in one that doesn’t make you happy, by all means solicit information."
In some ways, the advice of the very married Joe echoes that of the married Brody.
"It doesn't sound like women are having a hard time meeting men, but getting them down the aisle. I don't know what to tell them. If a man doesn't want to get married, nothig a woman says or does will change that."
And he adds:
You are not bombarded with it any more than your Caucasian counterparts (while I didn’t see ‘He’s Just Not That Into You’, I saw a trailer and the cast did not look like a Tyler Perry production). There is a whole industry built around telling 30 something women if you do this one thing, he will marry you.
When it comes to interracial dating, Joe also said it's a shame that some black women will internalize "every time a black guy in a suit has a Becky on his arm" ignoring the fact that for some people, like Robert DeNiro or Robin Thicke, the "only thing a white women could do for (them) is their laundry."
I’m married to a black woman; happily married. If I suddenly become not married, I’m going to try to sleep with someone totally unlike the woman I’ve been sleeping with for the past decade. I have a feeling a bunch of second marriages for black men go that route. But the fact that I would want a vanilla cone after a decade of chocolate isn’t an attack on chocolate. Besides, people like what they like. John Mayer is an ass, but when he says his dick is a white supremacist, I understand what he was trying to say.
Reader Comments (201)
Good post. I enjoyed this more than the usual cliche points you see in most "black marriage crisis" articles.
One nitpick:
"We'd known each other most of our lives and our families for all intensive purposes 'arranged' for us to be married."
This should be for all "intents and purposes". That's probably what he wrote, since you got this feedback through facebook. Sorry, stuff like that just sticks out to me.
I roll with almost everything Brody said.
I cringe when I hear women (regardless of race) asking questions on relationship blogs/articles about how they can get their man to propose. If they are asking that question, it shows they're clearly missing the point. If you have to ask that question, most likely, he's not looking to marry YOU or he would have done it already.
But women have come up with this concept of "investing" in a man, which is something I never quite understood. That if they were with a man for 3-4 years, they've made an investment, and don't want to lose it. I guess they don't want all their hard work to benefit another woman who will then get wifed up, but sticking around for longer doesn't mean he's going to marry YOU. Sometimes, good investing involves knowing when to cut your losses... and knowing when you need to "invest" in a better stock.
I also agree with Joe about how the lack of a sense of shame about unwed parenting (by men and women) has contributed to this "marriage crisis." A lot of us have birth certificates that were not dated at least nine months after our parents' marriage license... and while every pregnant couple should not get married (as in cases of abuse, cheating, etc.), perhaps more should.
I couldn’t help but notice (and I could be wrong) that this article doesn’t seem to touch on the numbers disparity much. Regardless of what Thicke and DeNiro are doing, black men date/marry interracially at higher numbers than do black women, and black women outnumber black men in general, both of which affect the number of intra-racial bachelors available for black women who want to be married.
As for Marc’s comments . . . I thought the college enrollment/graduation rates of black women and men were a moot point. I guess all those women at HBCU’s are imagining things about their male to female ratios. Seriously, how many studies do their need to be to tell us what we already know about this issue? Now, I, like Marc, can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I went to business school, and the black men there did not outnumber their female counterparts. However, engineering programs usually do skew more male regardless of race.
And yes, of course many white women over 30 are facing marriage panic. White women also have to vie with the fact that they too are beginning to outnumber white men in terms of earning college degrees. What those white women wanting marriage don’t have to contend with is the intersectionality of race and gender and the impact that will have on their marriage prospects. Those marriage minded white women don’t have to contend with the same type of negative, unfeminine stereotyping in the media that black women endure because their beauty is upheld as the ideal standard. Whatever enrollment/graduation disparities there are between white men and women, it’s that much more extreme for blacks.
@lisa99
Which is it, already? Are black women supposed to invest in men that don’t measure up their level of education, and/or ambition, and/or (sometimes) income, or are we supposed to realize that if he doesn’t measure up to our level of education, goals/ambition, income, etc., that he isn’t worth the effort?
And I think there is still shame attached to unwed birth in our community. That’s got to be one of the only things inhibiting single, upwardly mobile, professional, high income earning black women from going at it alone. They don’t want to be another negative black, baby-mamma statistic, even though from a financial standpoint, these types of single, professional black women could sustain a middle class lifestyle for themselves and a child or two regardless of whether or not a husband is involved. And I hate to go all classist eugenicist on people, but this is “the black snob,” and well, if you want to expand the black middle class, then wouldn’t logic dictate that you would want more highly educated women of means to pro-create in larger numbers?
This is really interesting post. I've been following your posts in a while and I enjoy every minute. Keep up the good work my friend!
sigh. not where I was hoping you would go with this. at. all.
If we must take the "trust any other subject matter expert except myself" approach, how about interviewing some more "seasoned" experts. If we must generalize about how to get married, should these generalizations come from some people who have managed to stay happily married for something resembling at least a decade?
Not to diss the 20/30somethings that took the time to share their perspectives; however, if life begins at 40 (as they say), is there wisdom the 50/40 somethings have to share? After all, that is the top end of this Hip Hop Generation that is being discussed. I'm just saying its one thing to have a revelation, its a whole other nuther perspective to live with that revelation awhile.
Where are the married couples that have been at this marriage thing beyond what Malcolm Gladwell refers to as the 10,000 Hour Rule - the amount of practice that it takes to become extraordinary at any particular skill?
@ lila
I asked the three men about the disparity, but while they understood it, they felt it was overblown (hence Brody's comment about what if black men eliminated black women as "unmarrigable" based on obesity rates in the black community). Most didn't put much credence in the disparity feeling the numbers can be easily twisted to reflect many different things. Basing their answers on their own personal experiences, they all said they knew men, like themselves, who seemed to meet basic eligibility standards by their definitions. Things just get more complicated when it comes to actually finding the right person.
Personally, while I know of the statistics, I'm someone who has lived all over (from southern Illinois to the deserts of West Texas to the deserts of Bakersfield, Calif. to St. Louis, Mo. to Washington, D.C.) and with the exception of the time spent in West Texas and Bakersfield, I wasn't lacking for black men to date. (Heck, I even was able to date pretty well in Bakersfield until I took myself off the market to work through personal, post-divorce issues.) Whether I wanted those men or not was usually the problem. In all honesty, I usually can't relate to much of the "marriage panic." This either makes me a good person to write about it or a horrible person. I tend to look at my own personal dating experience and see it as "It's hard to find someone compatible" rather than "there's no men out there due to a statistical advantage or whatnot." That's why I decided I'd start letting other folks voice their opinions because my reality isn't like the reality of others.
Also, while interracial dating may be a factor in some areas, the actual rate of black men marrying non-black women is something like 8 percent. It really seems strange to get really worked up over that when the fact is when black men do get married 92 percent of them are marrying black women. The real question for me is why aren't black people getting married. I see the interracial dating stuff as a diversion and a non-factor. To me, it would be like blaming the lack of black marriages on the number of gay people in the community -- it just isn't applicable to me.
@lila
My belief is this...
"we're supposed to realize that if he doesn’t measure up to our level of education, goals/ambition, income, etc., that he isn’t worth the effort?"
Because when I see BW making an effort, it's usually on men who DON'T measure up. They buy into the idea that they should lower their standards to have a man, and in fact, the lowering of standards usually leads to being dragged along for years and years by the same man.
As for this... "wouldn’t logic dictate that you would want more highly educated women of means to pro-create in larger numbers?"
My answer is no, not if they're doing it alone. There are a number of statistics that say that the income levels of black folks, by and large, are going down. Honestly, I believe that could be due to the fact that many women, regardless of education level, are being strained by the fact that they are raising children on one income instead of two.
Plus, procreation in larger numbers does NOT equal greater strength as a community. Groups that do well in this country usually have stable family structures that include mother and father. The correlation between that and successful outcomes for children is real, and for the black community to dismiss that as a factor in our various social ills is dangerous.
@ The_A
I opened the topic up to pretty much every man on my Facebook, including the older ones. So, if some older married men want to add to the conversation, I'm all for it. But the reality is, the dating environment is rather different from the one our parents navigated and I think that has to be taken into consideration. After all, it wasn't our father's generation who had a hard time popping the question and marrying anyone. It's the folks running around now who are struggling to find someone and commit. I wanted to know why that is. Are people less reluctant to get married? What is going on now that is different from when my parents were dating? I wanted to know how life post the women's rights and civil rights movements, plus other post-modern changes affected dating and marriage.
So this wasn't really about how to get married and stay married. This was about why is it hard for people to even get near a marriage in the modern age. I mean, if you ask my parents, who have been married for more than 37 years, they'd just say that "all the black folks done gone crazy." Because, honestly, I've spoken to older people about this and they really think we're all nuts, need to stop having babies out of wedlock and just get married already. They can talk about how to stay in a marriage, how to love one another, but they're not much help when it comes to actually talking about the present dating environment being out of the game for so long, happily married, worried about other things.
So if people would like to see a column about how to stay married from married folks who've been together 10-plus years, I can do that. But from what I was reading in the comments the bigger problem was just finding someone decent to date and getting into a serious marriage -- not staying married. Seems like folks can't even get near an alter from the complaints.
Black men, when they marry, marry black women 9 out of 10 times. I don't understand why some black women constantly talk about "all black men want is a white woman". It's insane. Generally speaking, white women are not intersted in black men. And I am sorry to tell some of you this, but, generally speaking, white men are not interested in black women. Not for marriage at least. We can continue tearing each other down in hopes of finding our white Knight or white princess. Or we can take on the very difficult, but truly rewarding, task of rebuilding black love.
Yes only 8% of black men are marrying interracially, but if most of the men in the “talented 10th” are marrying woman of other races that is a problem. That leaves many black women to marry, less educated and financially stable men which drain our communities of aid and positive role models. I don’t want men teaching our black boys that “making it” means to have a white woman on your arm and turning your back on the black community. To ignore this trend of successful black male, white woman intermarriage is detrimental to stabilizing the black community.
People have too many choices. Choices are a gift and a curse. Most of us know that we want to find someone to love who loves us back, make families together, we know thats where happiness and fufillment will most likely come from but we constantly make decisions that push that goal further and further away because of the allure of options and different experiences.
While there are some who are ambivalent about marriage and rel;ationships and are perfectly happy with being alone, lets exclude them from the convo and focus on those that do seek love, commitment, marriage, and relationships. IF YOU WANNA BE IN A DAMN RELATIONSHIP THAN YOU NEED TO MAKE CHOICES AND LIVE YOUR LIFE LIKE YOU WANT TO BE IN A DAMN RELATIONSHIP! Work on your self, teach yourself to share, to trust, to talk, to love, to compromise, to COMMIT, to see the big picture and put someone else's needs above yours. Then you need to recognize your basic needs (core, values-related needs) and be open and find someone who your attracted to(if thats important to you) who can satisfy the top 3 needs and enough of the others make up about 70+ percent and MAKE IT WORK.
@lisa99
Black women need to realize that having an education and acheiving a certain status financially or professionally does not entitle you or make you much more of a must-have to a man of equal or greater status. The "level" system is a man thing. Why? because men are for the most part not looking to be taken care of and having a wealthy successful wife is not as much of a status symbol for men as it is for a woman to have a wealthy, successful educated man. Men want a woman who they find attractive who is caring, supportive, good-natured, and kind. Whether she's an ivy league grad or a bar maid, it really doesn't matter.
@ Rick, what is focusing on the trend going to do? No one can stop people from marrying or dating any race they want. That is their right. Single people need to focus on the things they can control and stop worrying about what other people are doing. If a guy doesn't want to date me then fine, cause my type is a guy that is attracted to me.
Successful black men marrying white women reminds me of foreign countries complaining about the “Brain Drain” of most of the scientist and successful people immigrating from emerging countries to the U.S. If most of the successful men that can help to resolve the problems in the black community leaving the 90% who can do little to positively impact the problem the issues in the communities will be very difficult to resolve.
@ Rick
Just because someone is successful doesn't mean they will be a good influence or role model. A lot of people got to where they are doing shady, hoodrat things.
@ Rick
According to the 1990 U.S. Census black men with a college degree or higher marry other black women at a rate of 90 percent. That's a two percent difference from the 92 percent of black men who marry black women overall, regardless of socio-economic background. I'm honestly not going to lose a lot of sleep over that. The reality is if someone doesn't want to be with you (re: be with a black woman), why would I or any other black woman want them?
I still maintain that the larger issue is that black people, men and women, don't get married at the same rate as others no matter who they're marrying. That is the bigger question. Why no one is getting married at all. Are they just waiting until they're older? Is it financial? What? We tend to focus on how many black women have never been married, but people usually forget to add that many black men haven't been married either. The rate is around a 40 percent marriage for BOTH black men and women. But no one is running around screaming, "What about all these poor unmarried black men?" It's always assumed that the women are suffering but considering married men live longer and are happier than men who never marry, I'm going to go out on a limb and say everyone's a little miserable, but it's more socially acceptable for women to complain about it. I can only imagine the derision if some guy got up and lamented the quality of women he was meeting.
@ nova nova
Choice truly is the greatest paradox about dating in the Western world. You're in control of your own destiny -- for better or worse. While you can factor in outside influences, at the end of the day you have to "make it happen," one way or another.
The most logical and useful advice in this article are the anecdotes that say women need to know when to cut their losses and move on. I see it all the time. Women invest years in men who are "just not that into them" and deny others who are more serious and committment minded. If a man doesn't want you, you won't change his mind. He'll hang out, have sex with you... you may even have the "privilege" of bearing an OOW child that he may or may not support, but he's not likely to wife you.
I am still single at 33, but I don't complain because I have saved myself a lot of time and heartache by taking that type of advice. I have never found a relationship that was "going anywhere" hence I have never been in one longer than six months. Even if I see potential, if my feelings are not reciprocated, why waste time? One thing life has taught me is that the word "no" is your most powerful negotiating tool. When you're willing to approach marriage with the same no-nonsense attitude you do anything else you're working toward, you come out better in the end whether or not you reach that ultimate goal.
It seems counterintuitive to some, but willingness to walk away would make it easier for a lot of women to marry. If you see a relationship isn't progressive, your willingness to cut it off tends to make the other party put up or shut up. If they really love you, the fear of losing you will move things along. If they don't they will leave and you've saved yourself time and energy on something that was never going to end in a committment anyway. It's a win-win situation that limits the amount of baggage you pick up along the way.
My current relationship is young but progressive and I am happy so far. I wouldn't have been open to it if I were still hung up on some man that didn't want me or so bogged down with the baggage of one-sided committment that I wasn't able to receive anything good. Even if some factors of the "marriage crisis" are rooted in truth, I can't control that stuff. What I can do is make good decisions and be the best person I can be.
@the lady
For the most part other cultures raise their children to love marry and respect their own woman, thusly the trend can be turned back and their communities thrive. For example most successful Asian men marry Asian women, most Middle Eastern men marry Middle Eastern women, Jews marry Jews they hire match makers to find a spouse within their own community, because they all realize that this important to the continuation of their society. I am proud of my black community I am not a coward or a traitor and want my culture to continue this is why I am married to a proud black Queen and I will teach my sons nephews etc... to do the same. One Middle Eastern man at my job was laughing at this so called “brother” who was bad mouthing Black women and putting white women on a pedestal with his statements. The Middle Easterner laughingly stated, “What is wrong with this man is he crazy?” Some black men’s actions are shameful; it is crazy not to love your own women and your own culture. We have to be our brother’s keeper and try to stop the self hate. Some of these self hating men need therapy the same way you would call out a friend or relative who has an alcohol or drug addition, “tough love” is needed for these self esteem issues that are degenerating our black communities.
@lisa99
Oh, I wasn’t saying that affluent, black women should have as many children as Angelina Jolie. What I’m saying is that once a woman reaches an income level where she can sustain a middle class lifestyle on her own for herself and for a child, then what right has society to stigmatize her decision should she choose to procreate? Of course, on average, married couples are more affluent. They usually have two incomes and are well educated, but not everyone will marry, and an unmarried woman of means that wants to procreate shouldn’t be stigmatized into childlessness just because she hasn’t secured a husband. Adoption agencies wouldn’t hand over babies to single, black female parents or gay parents if they weren’t deemed financially up to the task. Your logic implies that these professional, single, black women would be unable to transfer their resources and status to their children without husbands, but that’s not always true, now is it? My mother’s hard earned class privilege didn't evaporate once she chose to raise me as a single parent, and she had no major problems transferring that privilege to me despite being unwed.
It’s poverty that breaks down communities, not single motherhood. Traditionally, poverty was the biggest reason why single motherhood was and still is frowned upon (besides sexism and patriarchy). In a patriarchal society where the livelihood of a woman and her children were tethered to her husband’s income and status, birthing children out of wedlock threatened the security of that woman and her child, often placing the burden of their expenses on the community or the welfare state, as it were. If low income single mothers were capable of sustaining a middle class lifestyle and supporting their children without being subsidized by the state, then no one would care whether or not they were unwed, single mothers.
To be honest with you a lot of men do not marry black women because they don’t respect them and they do not respect them because the society does not respect black women. I have seen different studies regarding interracial marriage that shows that it is a problem, however it is clear that if the media continues to showcase successful black men with white women then young boys will want to emulate, just like having the latest designer style. So when a black boy meets a decent black women they are “just not that into you” and don’t court you because the images in the society state that you are only good for sex, but the white women or mixed women are for marriage. This is evil brainwashing that destroys allot of relationships and our communities, if a black man is not treating his black woman correctly why should she stand by their side to help them to succeed. I had a friend from college, who when he dated black women would complain about having to take some of his black girlfriends out to dinner. But then when he dated a non black girl he bent over backwards to buy her all kinds of expensive presents etc… Then attempted tell me that he didn’t want to marry a black girl because they don’t treat him well. I had to take the brother to task and let him know that no human being is going to treat you well when you are mistreating them for very long.
I have learned to read this wonderful blog, but avoid commenting. Lurking is much more enjoyable. It's necessary to avoid being attacked by the echo chamber. That's why I stay away from the other Black Women Empowerment blogs....(hatred blogs), they don't want any other viewpoints. This is the only such blog that has any semblance of balance.
So you say the floor is open and that we can be blunt?
I'm a black male, 37, single....not actively on the market. But I wanted to add my 1/2 cent. I don't have any dating interest in Black women...and I realized that my preference was different over 20 years ago. There are probably a million reasons...but I try to narrow them down to the most relevant few. Unfortunately when you try to explain these things to bw, they always deny everything. I post these views for the benefit of bw.... (and I'm not the only one). The information is out there. The problem is, too many bw dismiss it.
Instead of re-typing everything, I will post a few recent commentaries...that pretty much cover most of the important issues. You'll have to decipher for yourselves what's there...
I wrote these commentaries a few weeks/days ago... and it's amazing how my thoughts mirror a few of the others here.
3 posts/points:
1. “Black, Single, and Clueless.
2. “What if He Can‘t Give You The Platinum Wedding? Are Women Falling In Love With the Idea of the Wedding Instead of the Man?
3. The Image of the young Black American woman is now Beyonce and Rihanna (Perhaps not the case for those over 35, but even for some of them this probably does apply). “And it's painful to watch. You all may not realize it...or may not think it's a big deal. But it is your image. Many of your daughters, nieces, sisters,....are aspiring to fit that mold. The mold of a sexpot.... thug loving, questionable moral character....vacuous woman. etc etc etc.
For me these women epitomize almost everything that I find unattractive about the Black American woman. And when I say that young Black women want to emulate this image... I am talking about everything.... from their their choice in men...clothing, materialism, movements, etc. One is with a drug dealer...and that is celebrated by Black culture. (Oh yeah...culture is another big one. They represent a culture that I can't identify with).
The other, Rihanna, was recently quoted in a British newspaper stating that she prefers the thug over a nice guy....and goes on to call good men, powderpuffs. (This was after she was beaten to a bloody mess).
If I ever have sons... this is what I will train him to avoid at all costs.
(late for work... wish I could be more detailed).
I have a whole series on Black women and their choices. Just search "Black Women" from the blog.
You know.
Women really make things more complicated than they need to be; and I'm a woman.
If a man wants you he'll claim it. If he wants to marry you he won't hide behind excuses. It really is that black and white. Men will take what you give them. If you give them ass they'll take it and consider it an easy challenge. If you want marriage and he's resistant he's telling you in oh but so few words: I like you but you ain't the one for me.
Why can't women accept that at face value?
Women that are happy are joyous and blissful and know that a man and the title of Mrs. do not a happy woman make. So why put yourself through the mind games?
Men are about action. Nothing more; nothing less.
Addition to my last post:
The woman that my friend wanted to marry broke off the engagement and married a man of her own race after my friend was kicked out of law school and had spent most of his tuition money on her. Even though he was heartbroken it was for the best because his ex-fiancé would probably never have considered marrying him if he was not in law school and who would want to be with a woman who would not stand by you through hard times.
TJ, I like the way you think!
Brody, Marc, and Joe were on point. I am puzzled by the number of people who stay in a relationship with someone when one of the parties is being dragged through the relationship. These situations hit a dénouement when a pregnancy pops up, FORCING the parties to act because now their actions affect another person.
Whoa, Marc, is it up to 75% now? Wow! Hee, hee
@ Bonnie
I think women struggle with the face value thing at times because they invest a lot of energy in these relationships and expect some form of return-on-investment as another reader mentioned up thread. When I was going through my divorce I remember hoping that by breaking up with my husband that perhaps he'd become a better man for a different woman and not repeat the same mistakes. Yet one of my friends was going through a six-year stand-off with a guy she was dating/living with and wanted to get married and feared letting him go.
"Watch him get his act together for some other girl after all the work I did!" she lamented.
This, to me, sounded absolutely crazy pants. But I know she was not the only woman who felt this way about her long-term relationship. I mean, here I am, the weirdo, who essentially broke up with her college sweetheart because neither of us were interested in getting married in our early 20s (only to turn around and marry another guy when I was 24). Who's walked away from relationships due to everything from religious incompatibility to the guy wanting something serious and me, not. It just doesn't make sense to me to cling to a dead relationship like it's a life preserver. I'm honestly not afraid of being single and looking rather than in a relationship and frustrated, waiting on a grown person to change. (When so few grown people actually "change.")